Why Must All the Comfortable Cars Have Leather?

"Future Heap Owner" (aperiodic) 01/26/2019 at 03:46 • Filed to: Well it’s an annoying vegan request but at least it’s about cars this time, Volvo, Wagon, Leather, No leather

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I am a hardcore personal vegan, and I’m not gonna buy no car that means I ride around in some poor animal’s skin for hours at a time. But these all these older European cars that are interesting purport to have leather interiors. Which ones are actually legit? When did synthetic leather start being widespread?

I’m talking bout Volvo 850Rs and early aughts entry level Mercedes wagons, specifically. Can I get any with a little thrill factor that have cloth or fake leather interiors?

Best Volvo body style for your time.

gettingoldercarguy > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:00

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I was vegan for several years, heart reasons not ideological ones. If you do drive a car, how do you rationalize the killing of many thousands of insects?

Future Heap Owner > gettingoldercarguy 01/26/2019 at 04:02

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Don’t really give as many shits about things that aren’t mammals

Future Heap Owner > gettingoldercarguy 01/26/2019 at 04:03

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Also insect populations are spiraling downwards in many places  people live due to systemic factors outside of my control

CRider > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:03

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I thought vegans aspired to own these? 

Future Heap Owner > CRider 01/26/2019 at 04:03

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I mean, I wouldn’t say no? But I want some more space.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:06

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Synthetic leather is much more expensive than you’d think to make. Especially given how shit-tier the quality was for a number of years.

IMO, if it’s a used car being imported, the decision was made 25+ years ago. If the deal is good, buy it and have it re-finished in cloth or hemp or whatever you want. It’s cheaper than you think (a grand-ish for most cars). But if you want an all original collector car then I guess you’re a bit SOL. Leather is very durable and was the original “long life” material. Back in the 70s and 80s, that was what luxury meant - it would still be in one piece 5 years down the line. A good leather seat could do that while cheap vinyl could not.

gettingoldercarguy > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:06

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I always viewed the compassion argument from a cns position.

Future Heap Owner > CRider 01/26/2019 at 04:07

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Personal automobile transport carbon load is not super significant to the supply chain carbon I’ve eliminated by being vegan, or not daily car commuting (I am a smug biker) , or the electricity generation (I pay for mine to be only from windmills), or the gas when I had that (paid for methane offsets (sequestering cow farts)), or the plane trips my company makes me take.

I’ve earned a car.

Future Heap Owner > gettingoldercarguy 01/26/2019 at 04:07

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CNS?

Future Heap Owner > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/26/2019 at 04:09

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But what about like 20 yrs ago, not 40-50.

Good to know about re-finishing tho. That is less than I thought.

CRider > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:13

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Why would you get a good condition  interior refinished? To avoid sitting on cow skin? You’d be wasting a leather interior that has already been long since ‘paid for’.

Future Heap Owner > CRider 01/26/2019 at 04:16

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If I get super desperate it’s an option to consider

gettingoldercarguy > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:17

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Central nervous system

Future Heap Owner > gettingoldercarguy 01/26/2019 at 04:17

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I look out for my cuddle buddies for sure

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:22

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I know the old “MB-tex” was pretty good in the 90s but I’m not sure about much else for synthetic materials. High quality vinyl seats did appear at a few other places. I think this will come down to preference. Even to this day, I think our knowledge and development of leather is such that it will be, dollar for dollar, one of the best materials for this purpose. And I say that having been in the interior industry a decade ago, developing coatings and processes for automotive interiors. Sure there are better synthetic materials and there are cheaper synthetic materials. But you then have to pick - cheap price, or all out performance?

CRider > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:28

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So you should have no problem with an all ig ator skin interior, right? 

Future Heap Owner > CRider 01/26/2019 at 04:30

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I wouldn’t go for it. T hose are closer to mammals than insects. They’re intelligent predators!

Steve in Manhattan > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:48

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Back in the early 90s I had a horrific horseback riding accident, and unable to move around much, I gained 50 pounds. Around 1993, I realized I needed to do something, so I went vegan and dropped about 40 pounds in 3 months. Then I said - I shall be vegetarian, because it is healthier and helps the Earth. So I did that for 8 years.

And, in 1997, just out of law school, I bought a ‘97 SHO with cloth interior that no one else would buy (they demanded leather) - got about 8 grand off a 32K sticker (demonstrator w/ a couple thousand miles, to be fair) - again, saving the Earth.

Later, a tall woman in a bikini brought me a cheeseburger, and I went omnivore again (long story) . And yet, the very last car I owned before moving to NYC saved some cows. And a Volvo wagon available with cloth interior would be great, or Alcantara. I do not need leather on anything - we are going sofa shopping tomorrow, and I will demand cloth. 

Cé hé sin > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:50

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So are sharks, probably.

Cé hé sin > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 04:54

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While on this subject, upmarket cars sold in India don’t have leather because the thought of sitting o n deceased and holy cows doesn’t appeal to the Hindu population. Th ey could use pigskin, but that wouldn’t appeal to the rest of them.

cberg > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 05:07

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I’m a vegetarian/pescatarian with a Volvo.

They just make sense.

facw > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 05:17

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I know Volvo offered cloth for the V70, though looking around, they seem extremely rare, and I’m not sure they were ever available on the R. Also you still have the leather steering wheel and shifter even with the cloth:

( Image is from an ‘06 V70)

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 05:41

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You need an 80s Volvo those had awesome crush Valour seats 

ihm96 > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 05:48

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Any 80s and 90s benz you find like in a C or E will likely have the MB Tex which is better anyways cause it still looks perfect in mostly cars where the leather would be all worn and tearing. Find like a 2000 c230 sport, they’re awesome

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 07:19

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Counterpoint: If you don’t buy a car with leather, those particular cows would have died for no reason. The best thing you can do for the long dead bovines is make sure their sacrifice wasn’t in vain .

kanadanmajava1 > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 08:04

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I’m not ve ga n but still vegetarian. I’m so far ok with ethically produced milk, egs etc. but I do not like things made from dead animals. So I try to avoid leather in cars too. Still two of my cars have leather seats.

Logically it does n’t make difference if these two cars have leather seats or not . Both were made +20 years ago. The poor animals have been dead for long and me buying an used car with leather seats doesn’t require more dead animals. But I still do not like leather seats.

The problem lies with new things that have leather. Aftermarket steering wheels, shift boots, shoes etc. are really annoying things to buy if you want to avoid leather. If I buy any new things made with leather it will generate tiny bit of more demand for these .

And also one of the leather seated cars of mine need patching up the front seats. My neighbor does upholstery work so he could patch it up. But it’s not just a broken seam and new material is required. How can I get the seat fixed up without using any new leather? Blending in a piece made from different material might be quite challenging. I would need a piece of leather that I have salvaged from a dumpster .

diplodicus forgot his password > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 08:08

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Fungi are intelligent but I bet you eat those.

diplodicus forgot his password > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/26/2019 at 08:09

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Mb tex goes back to the 60s I believe, ever seen an old rusted Mercedes with mint upholstery? Mb-tex

B.Butch > facw 01/26/2019 at 08:16

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Ive got the basic one v70, it still has leather stering wheel and shift knob, but yeah, thats as little animalas you can get in premium cars

Nibby > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 08:41

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so you’re picking and choosing!

bob and john > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 09:12

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by...why? the leather is already there. the cow/car combo was made LOOONNGGGGG ago. you arent saving anyone or affecting any produciton lines. I get if you wouldnt order a new car with it, thats totally cool. if you pull it off, then you wasted the cow AND made more mess by having another interior made and put in. 

BaconSandwich is tasty. > CRider 01/26/2019 at 09:13

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I'm as my a carnivore as anyone else... and I'd daily drive one. In Canada. In winter.

71MGBGT Likes Subarus of Unusual Colors > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 09:35

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So this isn’t a helpful response, but the Toyota Century had an ultra-premium cloth interior which is awesome.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 10:02

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MB Tex is easy enough to find in 210's. Usually if it doesn't have multicontour or vented seats then it has Tex. I can verify with a VIN.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 10:17

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Well, I do know all-cloth was available on the IS300 sedan (uncommon yes, but they exist). My German knowledge is weak, but I can't think of any modern luxury cars sold here that don't have leather?

nermal > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 10:59

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Have you ruled out an i3? They have non-cow seats and even sustainable wood and stuff. No rainforests were destroyed in making the interior.

Used ones are relatively dirt cheap as well. 

12and35 > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 11:55

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My Volvo V70 has cloth interior and is very comfy.

Future Heap Owner > diplodicus forgot his password 01/26/2019 at 13:48

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I don’t believe fungi are intelligent. They may have interesting collective behavior, but you can have that without consciousness.

Future Heap Owner > facw 01/26/2019 at 13:50

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Yeah it seems like the R only had leather interiors.

Future Heap Owner > nermal 01/26/2019 at 13:51

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I think those are gonna be out of my price range (~$5k).

Future Heap Owner > ihm96 01/26/2019 at 13:53

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Ooh excellent, this is one of the things I was looking at anyways. You said “likely”; is there a way to tell for sure  from the VIN?

Future Heap Owner > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 01/26/2019 at 13:54

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A few people have said that  they’re usually synthetic leather these days. You think that’s wrong?

Future Heap Owner > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/26/2019 at 13:54

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Sweeeeeeet

Future Heap Owner > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 01/26/2019 at 13:55

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Man I want one, but 80s might be too old to be safe enough for my tastes.

Future Heap Owner > Nibby 01/26/2019 at 13:58

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Yes, absolutely. Being vegan is about reducing harm from my actions.  I recognize I can’t eliminate harm, but I’m still gonna try to reduce it.

Future Heap Owner > bob and john 01/26/2019 at 14:05

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Because I don’t want to ride around sitting in animal skin. I recognize that buying one with leather and replacing it doesn’t make logical sense, which is why I’m trying to avoid it.  But if I search unsuccessfully long enough, it’s an option I could consider.

Future Heap Owner > B.Butch 01/26/2019 at 14:07

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I’ve resigned myself to the steering wheel & shift knob being leather. At least the knob is easy enough to replace with a non-leather aftermarket one.

Future Heap Owner > kanadanmajava1 01/26/2019 at 14:10

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S upporting an aftermarket for leather still (in a very  small way) encourages production. And then there’s the patch repair issue you bring up.

Future Heap Owner > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 01/26/2019 at 14:11

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Oh, and the IS300 is nice and comfy for you? No issues on 6, 7, 8 hour driving days?

bob and john > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 14:11

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so you end up being MORE wasteful for....??????

Future Heap Owner > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 01/26/2019 at 14:13

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I’m not interested in making deaths matter . I’m interested in reducing future deaths. And also not sitting in animal skins.

Future Heap Owner > bob and john 01/26/2019 at 14:16

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For my own preferences. I’m fairly low waste overall in my lifestyle (for an American, that is). I don’t mind throwing out some leather rather than using it, for a used  vehicle I plan to use for as long as I can. Though again, that’s a last resort option.

Future Heap Owner > 12and35 01/26/2019 at 15:00

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Does it have a turbo engine? How is the  h oon factor?

Nibby > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 15:29

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Aren’t you harming plants, fruits and vegetables?

diplodicus forgot his password > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 16:36

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It doesn't really matter what you believe, there's scientific evidence that they learn. If you don't think an organism that learns is intelligent then I'd like to know your definition of intelligence. 

Future Heap Owner > Nibby 01/26/2019 at 17:39

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Not really. Plants just exist. They have no awareness, feel no pain. I’m not worried about it.

kanadanmajava1 > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 17:39

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I have managed to stay away from the leather steering wheels etc. as there are some alternatives. But the patch issue is still to be solved. Maybe I’ll find a couch from a dumpster that could donate enough pieces to fix my se at s and maybe neighbor could fix couple of oth er thing s as well.

It’s surprising how little alcantara steering wheels are in the market as it’s   a great alternative for suede.

Nibby > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 17:44

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life is endless suffering and pain

Future Heap Owner > diplodicus forgot his password 01/26/2019 at 18:14

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You’re talking about the thing where slime molds do a good job approximating an optimal transport network between food sources, right? That’s not one organism learning, that’s many organisms (they also live as independent single cells) following rules that e nable some useful emergent behavior when they team up. The cells are not learning; their behavior is fixed.

diplodicus forgot his password > Future Heap Owner 01/26/2019 at 19:48

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Thats one component, they also know what paths they’ve explored in search of food. They’ve also done the two armed bandit test on slime molds that shows they learn from past experience. Shaggy mane mushrooms attack the nematodes that try and prey on there mycelium . Many fungi produce anti bacterial enzymes to protect themselves. Which is why certain ant colonies cultivate mushrooms. Your blinded by your own ego if you don’t think that these behaviors show intelligence.

If you don’t think many cells communicating together constitutes intelligence then what the fuck are you? That’s all a brain is. And a brain isn’t even necessary. Look at all the things cephalopods can do without a central nervous system. C uttlefish can change the color and texture of their skin to match an environment. They’ll even go as far as pretending to be a female during mating season to trick bigger males so that they themselves can mate.

The point is it's all "murder" the only organisms that survive without the death of another organism are plants. 

CRider > Future Heap Owner 01/27/2019 at 04:27

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So you want to protect intell igent life? How smart does an animal have to be to warrant your protection? 

CRider > BaconSandwich is tasty. 01/27/2019 at 04:28

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You must work from home. 

Future Heap Owner > CRider 01/27/2019 at 05:17

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Somewhere between a fungus and a person.

I can’t give an exact answer. That’s not really the point. Just because I can’t come up with some simple formulation of exactly which things I try not to contribute to the death of, doesn’t mean I shouldn’t care all. These are complicated questions, and my answers on them have changed over time, just as I have changed.

All I’m trying to do is minimize harm caused by my  actions . I recognize I can’t eliminate all of it, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t try to reduce it.

Future Heap Owner > diplodicus forgot his password 01/27/2019 at 05:47

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Avoiding previously searched paths is usually accomplished by laying down some marker that there is an innate response to , not maintaining a memory. There’s a much simpler explanation for that than intelligence.

The shaggy mane mushroom thing is neat, I didn’t know about these. But this looks like an adaptation to environment, not learning. Every species of these has consistent mechanisms for trapping across all members, right? There’s not new ones that emerge and then spread within the span of a few generations. That would be very compelling evidence for learning. If that were true, I would also try to avoid eating these mushrooms (which I’m pretty sure I already do). You heard about any interesting behaviors exhibited by shiitakes, or portobellos?

I do think the ant cultivation of mushrooms does show some rudimentary level of intelligence. I do try to avoid killing even insects when they’re not annoying me.

Your analogy between slime molds and brains is flawed, because the slime molds are composed of many independent organisms that can and do dissolve from the group and survive on their own, then form new groups . I’m sure you would be quite displeased if I were to liberate your brain cells to their own independent existence in the hope that they would reform some other intelligence.

C ephalopods are for sure intelligent! Fascinating creatures. I’ve often wondered what it’s like to be an octopus, because they lack a single centralized structure of nerves, instead having clusters for each leg. Is it like a little hive mind in a single organism?   I love those guys. I would never eat them.

To your final point: so? I recognize that animals (inc. humans) can only survive by ending other life. I simply want to minimize my own death footprint in terms of animals, because I believe they experience life in some manner too. The wold is brutal enough already.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Future Heap Owner 01/27/2019 at 10:32

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Longest I've driven was 5 hrs in it so far. I find it comfy

ihm96 > Future Heap Owner 01/27/2019 at 10:37

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If you give me a vin I can probably pull it up in the dealer system, I’m not sure how far back it goes but I can probably tell

Future Heap Owner > ihm96 01/27/2019 at 12:15

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Thank you!

B.Butch > Future Heap Owner 01/28/2019 at 12:48

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I decided just to  take care of it, cause the animal is dead already so at least i wont create more waste. But next car buying is going to be PITA for just that reason, as I want w221.

12and35 > Future Heap Owner 01/28/2019 at 13:21

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2.4 Turbo and it’s  pretty quick for what it is. But it’s so convenient to carry stuff. I put a LOT of firewood in the back once and had space to spare.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > CRider 01/28/2019 at 14:02

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Nope. :P

15 km commute each way.

RT > Future Heap Owner 01/29/2019 at 09:33

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Although the tradition didn’t entirely translate to export markets , Japanese luxury cars tend to avoid leather in favour of … wool!

I doubt you’d find many of these ( excluding imports) , but still, nice to know.

4kc > Future Heap Owner 02/04/2019 at 19:41

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I know at least the first couple generations of Lexus LS’s were available with cloth. I think most Lexus’ had it available until 2010 or so?

Future Heap Owner > 4kc 02/04/2019 at 20:23

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Excellent, good to know.

I still haven’t heard of any reports (good or bad) on the comfort factor of Lexus seats for long drives (8+ hours a day). When I talk about wanting comfortable seats , everybody starts talking German makes or Volvo.

4kc > Future Heap Owner 02/05/2019 at 01:28

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My V 70 and my friends LS430 are the two best highway cars I’ve ever driven. W ith 8+ hour- at- a- time seat time in both the V 70 was slightly better and more “ refreshed” ; but I never really set up the seat in the LS430  for me. Neither were physically tiring to drive that long, both in an almo st unnatural way. They somehow make driving so easy. The S550 AMG was nicer and more comfortable, but it didn’t make driving stress-free   in the same way. My current e46 touring and my old w124 touring are both pretty comfortable, but definitely need stretch breaks every few hours.

Future Heap Owner > RT 05/17/2020 at 15:42

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Oof, wool sounds like a killer if you leave your car out in the sun for a bit.